when does a meme become a meme?

topic posted Mon, September 24, 2007 - 6:06 PM by  danielle
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a seemingly simple, yet progressively complex question, in my mind- was the meme a meme when it was created, before it enters anyones brain, or does it have to have entered a persons brain to become one. or was it before it was even 'created', waiting for someone to tap into it...
i'm relatively new to the subject of memes, but the more i read/talk/think about it, the more i want to read/talk/think about it, so sorry if this seems to be a *silly question
posted by:
danielle
Oklahoma
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  • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

    Mon, September 24, 2007 - 6:10 PM
    The progression of memes reflects the development of society from its primitive beginnings up to the present. So far, eight different memes have been identified and analyzed.

    Their characteristics are:

    Meme 1. Basic, personal survival. The most primitive motivation of just staying alive.

    Meme 2. Clan survival. Tribal and family bonding along with superstition-filled attempts to understand the powers of nature which threaten to overpower them.

    Meme 3. Courage, survival of the fittest. Mastering the environment, fighting to break free of constraints.
    Sensing many gods, all of which are models of power.
    This is where individuals first find their personal power but, seeing reality through a worldview of separation and limited resources, compete against each other in attempts to gain advantage. As a meme which is short on thought and long on passion, societies in this stage quickly fragment into territorial, feudal-type communities surrounded by competing, enemy communities.

    Meme 4. Finding order and purpose in life. Obeying authority, regulations and externally imposed rules of behavior and morality. Sacrificing the self to a greater cause for a deferred reward. Dedicating allegiance to one supreme God. This social meme started to spread within civilization 5,000 years ago. Eventually, alliances arose between large-scale feudal structures and those who wished to develop extensive religious power.

    Meme 5. Achievement, striving to succeed. Fighting to win, beating the competition, achieving independence. This meme started to spread significantly in the 1700s. It was made possible by the collapse of feudalism and also a sense of increased personal empowerment, which was a side-effect of the Protestant Reformation. It gained particular strength with the founding of the United States, whose Constitution and Bill of Rights intentionally empowered and protected individual liberty.

    WEMES EMERGE:
    Weme 6. Community and caring. Unconditional love, accepting others as they are, seeing the value of service to others, the beginnings of spiritual understanding. Freedom of the spirit from greed, dogma, contention and other distractions from spiritual centeredness. This meme started to spread in the mid-1800s.

    Professor Clare Graves, the originator of this branch of social science, saw the first set of six memes as a first tier of human development. He called the transition of the human race into meme number seven a momentous leap, an entry into an entirely new set of memes, a new tier of consciousness. With this new tier comes freedom from all of the fears of the prior memes, and, finally, the freedom for human cognition to focus upon its possibilities in the world.

    As more and more people shift into the second tier of Wemes, the underpinnings of society become spiritual rather than materialistic. The second tier is expansive rather than self-serving or merely survival-oriented. Service to the world community, to the planet as a whole, becomes the inspiration as people activate these higher memes of consciousness.

    "Love and light" is not just a greeting to wish someone well, it is the byline of the emerging New Reality. The future of the human race is a bright one. It is love and light.

    Weme 7. Responsible freedom.

    Flexible flow, adapting to a world full of change.
    Big-picture views, the discovery of self-accountable, personal freedom. This meme started to spread after the global defeat of fascism in World War II. While most people started to look forward to the renewed chance to create personal prosperity, the beat generation of the 1950s emerged with its questioning of materialistic culture.
    This emerging movement examined Eastern philosophy, such as Zen Buddhism, in a search for answers to the mysteries of life.

    In Weme number seven, people act from an inner-directed core.
    Values come from fundamental, natural law, meaning that human rights are perceived as fundamental due to the fact that you exist.

    By nature, seventh Weme thinkers are self-accountable and independent within reason. They are honest in their communications and do not spend time on the rules of formality, unless they are important to those present.
    Seventh meme thinkers like technology for what it can do to improve life, and they value knowledge and competency above rank or status.

    They enjoy the pleasures of life, without being bound by any of them, and pursue activities that express their inner joy.
    External fashions and trends have no bearing upon these choices. They have emotional control, meaning that they still express emotions, but these expressions are appropriate, and not uncontrolled outbursts.

    This is a powerful Weme in promoting the exploration of the greater possibilities of life. It creates information networks and networks of people which easily adapt to changing needs.

    Seventh Weme thinkers are concerned with the endangered world environment and want to restore viability and ecological order. Their purpose of living includes being independent within reason, knowledgeable as much as possible, and caring for others within practical limits. They are accountable to themselves as responsible individuals, yet embrace their community of associates. Rather than striving to have things or to achieve things, they prefer to pursue personal development along a pathway that is natural to them.

    They can interact with people of the first six memes and speak their psychological language. They respect others' world views and unique habits, customs and cultures, even if they don't necessarily agree with them.

    This Weme brings a high sense of self-esteem based upon information as much as emotion. It brings an enlightened self-acceptance which acknowledges and accepts their own shortcomings and faults as mere stages along the way to acquiring more skills.

    Weme 8. Holistic, global view.

    Spiritual awareness, learning through simply being as well as doing. Becoming conscious of the superconscious, trusting intuition. This Weme started to spread in the cultural and spiritual awakening of the mid-1960s. Those seekers who found this pattern of thinking launched a whole new movement of spiritual awareness. This spiritual renaissance has the potential to develop the awareness to carry humanity through the Shift and into the New Reality.

    This Weme has a global village outlook, and seeks projects and solutions that will work well for the whole planet.
    It contains the vision to bring order out of chaos.

    Because of the incredible power of the second tier of Wemes, these will accelerate the transformation of the world as they become more and more widely adopted.

    Weme 9. The mystery Weme.

    The authors of Spiral Dynamics have identified, as of the 1990s, Weme number nine. They call this the Coral Weme, but they have not observed it in large quantities of people, so they cannot yet summarize its characteristics.

    However, using basic metaphysical principles, you can predict exactly what meme number nine will become.

    The new Weme number nine will be like meme number three (courage, survival of the fittest), only in a higher form of manifestation. Meme number three's courage lead to adventure, exploration and mastery of the physical environment. As the second tier memes all have a spiritual orientation, this means that the new Weme number nine will bring about adventure, exploration and mastery of the holistic environment of mind, body and spirit. It will do this while encompassing a global scale of awareness.

    The new, ninth Weme will bring exploration of the spiritually-inspired use of the power of the mind to transform reality for the better. It will create strong demand for spiritual and creative freedom on a global basis.

    This far-ranging, inspiring Weme has the power, quite simply, to transform the entire world as we know it.

    The keywords of the ninth Weme will be 'Powerful creativity.'

    Powerful Creativity:

    How powerful will it become? How much will this Weme transform the world as it gains in popularity?

    When a spiritually-oriented person uses their creativity, they use the same formula that Infinite Being originally used to create the entire universe. That's how powerful spiritual creativity is. In its fundamental form, it consists of three essential components:

    (1) Intent is used to define the goal, or the desired outcome.
    When defining a goal, it is better to leave the specifics undefined and deal in generalities. This allows the universe to find the easiest pathway through which to manifest the desired goal. Even better than specific objects are general principles. For example, the general principle of natural prosperity can find thousands of ways to materialize, whereas a goal involving one specific objective along the path to prosperity limits the options considerably.

    (2) Feeling is added to give the goal the life energy with which to grow from an idea into a pre-physical reality that becomes ready to manifest in the physical world. Ideally, an equal balance between the amount of intent and feeling makes for the most powerful act of creativity. For the sake of clarity, feeling is defined as a separate component from intent. In practice, however, the act of creativity expresses intent and feeling intertwined together as one creative act.

    This is in keeping with the way nature functions. Light, for example, is a form of electromagnetic radiation - electric and magnetic energies intertwined in perfect balance and set into motion.

    (3) Action. As the energy of your environment reorganizes itself around your empowered intent, you need to provide the third and final component, action. However, before the action, there first has to be a pause lasting several days. This is a hands-off period where you allow the growth of the project to occur at its own pace within the pre-physical ethers of space.

    Then, after several days have passed and the objective is ready to manifest, it will cause synchronistic flow to appear in your life. 'Coincidences' will occur which cause events around you to move towards the fulfillment of your desired goal. When this flow of supportive coincidences begins to occur, your job is to provide the action which each synchronistic event calls for, until the goal has become fully manifested.

    If, for example, a desired career opening occurs, then you would follow that opportunity to see if this is the main event, or if it is just something that you will learn from along the journey towards your goal.

    If a key contact occurs which can help your project, then you follow through on that contact to see where it will lead.
    Whatever mini-opportunities arise along the path to the realization of your goal, you provide the physical action to materialize those opportunities out of the realm of possibilities and bring them into the physical realm. Most often, goals materialize through a daisy chain of events and opportunities, each of which builds up to the final realization of the entire, original goal.

    People today are finding their way through the spiritual awakenings that come with second-tier Wemes number seven and eight. As they activate number nine, the Weme of powerful creativity, they discover a power which, unleashed, can transform not only their own lives but the world around them for the better.

    The New Reality is yours to explore. It already exists as a frequency of consciousness. In a world where thoughtlessness and heartlessness are common, people of the New Reality bring thoughtfulness and heartfulness. Where there is strife, people of the New Reality bring peace. Where there is pain, people of the New Reality bring love and healing.

    This is the New Reality, the spiritual revolution in human consciousness.

    Peace and Blessings ... Weme on .... Know what I meme?
    • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

      Tue, September 25, 2007 - 1:18 AM
      sunshine, you should do more direct research on memetics. you've represented "memes" quite inaccurately here. almost none of your examples would be called memes by the existing experts in the field! that doesn't mean your post isn't interesting and the spirit of your sharing them is not appreciated though. thanks sunshine!

      i would call your post a panglossian meme, designed to encourage a picture of progressive and purposeful evolution... ; )
      • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

        Tue, September 25, 2007 - 6:09 AM
        hmmm blue-j ... there is no such thing as ONE research is the accurate one the other isn't ... And memes are (if designed well) are all about purposeful evolution .... comprises a unit of cultural information, the building block of cultural evolution or diffusion that propagates from one mind to another analogously to the way in which a gene propagates from one organism to another as a unit of genetic information and of biological evolution ... I am very interested to find out what You have as accuracy regarding Memes ...

        What have you discovered, learned in doing your research on Memes.... I am actually Way more interested in Wemes than Memes....
        • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

          Tue, September 25, 2007 - 10:56 AM
          well, i'm going by the inventor of the term's definition (dawkins) and the subsequent publishers of all the major texts in the field (blackmore, lynch, brodie, dennett, et al), as well as by all existing definitions known to me in the journal dedicated to the topic. i don't have time now, but will share more later. i am also thankful for your sharing of your information and for discussion and challenge you only with respect and with the open mind of collaboration, and being open to learning from you, too!
        • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

          Tue, September 25, 2007 - 10:58 AM
          "Meme 1. Basic, personal survival. The most primitive motivation of just staying alive."

          this is not a meme. it is a basic instinct in all living things, even life with no awareness or imitation. memes require imitation and culture to exist. amoebas "try to survive," yet have no memes. this is, by all definitions known to me, aside from yours, not a meme.
  • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

    Wed, September 26, 2007 - 12:39 AM
    A meme becomes a meme when one person transmits it to another.
    Or to be more exact when one person intends to transmit it....via print, megaphone, mime, whatever.
    It is then a meme. It could die on the page not one person having picked up on it, taken it on as their own idea etc.
    It would be an unsuccessful meme, but still a meme.
    • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

      Wed, September 26, 2007 - 5:35 AM
      Yeah ... perhaps at the moment of copy .. it becomes a meme
      • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

        Wed, September 26, 2007 - 4:27 PM
        just though tit was an interesting and debeateable topic, as i've heard different people's different ideas, so the meme can be a meme, even if it remains stagnant, going into no one's mind?..
        • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

          Thu, September 27, 2007 - 9:43 PM
          the intention to transmit is what makes it a meme. It's continuation in the world from your mind to the culture in the large or small ways....This is reminding me about the latest info about DNA and Genghis Khan.... but the transmission is the key.

          You could have some incredible moment of *Idea!* or something and never decide to tell anyone, then it's yours (although the components of it most likely are made up of memes you've acquired already) and yours alone. You don't feel the need to tell anyone else about it, that's personal experience of life.

          I dunno...
          Writing it in a book and hiding it in a cave just makes it most probably that it's a terribly unsuccessful meme....that's like, because the intention to put it in a book is already transmission.
          It's like (OK take this in the lightest most unramificatory way possible!!) memetic abortion. Jeez it's such a charged word I hate to even type it in this setting but, you know what I mean....?


          • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

            Thu, September 27, 2007 - 9:50 PM
            excuse my grammar, please.

            Maybe writing a book and lighting it on fire is memetic abortion and writing a book and hiding it in a cave is like a frozen meme bank....that no one knows about... hmmm....
          • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

            Thu, September 27, 2007 - 11:38 PM
            "the intention to transmit is what makes it a meme"

            well, you're leaving out the majority of memes actually! reflexive imitation, sista. mirror neurons. things spread like wildfire among the networked apes!

            and "memetic abortion"? you are a fucking awesome funny weirdo genius
            • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

              Fri, September 28, 2007 - 10:28 PM
              Oh no, I don't mean intention has to be something that we cognitively recognize.

              I'm just looking at the book in the cave example. It's already a meme because you took the time to write it in a book.

              OK so the toddler in the supermarket line who was putting his hand over his eye because I just smiled and winked at him without even realizing it and he was trying to imitate the wink and had no idea how to do it...I didn't intend to transmit that meme to him, but because it's already ingrained as part of my social memetic behavior I'm transmitting it. It was a meme long before I came along.

              Who invented the wink?

              And thanks.
              ;^D
              • Meme Sequence

                Sun, September 30, 2007 - 7:15 AM
                "I'm just looking at the book in the cave example. It's already a meme because you took the time to write it in a book. "

                Here's a rough sequence for the development and progress of a meme;

                * initial impetus (issue / need) which triggers: idea(s) -> selection -> encoding -> transmission -> reception by 2nd host -> decoding -> storage (short term)

                -> Long-term storage -> Implementation -> re-encode -> retransmit
                or
                -> dismiss / dispose

                So the book is in the "transmission" phase.
                • Re: Meme Sequence

                  Sun, September 30, 2007 - 9:44 PM
                  this is a decent sketch george, but doesn't really capture the more reflexive types of memes that are more accidental, like a facial mannerism that spreads or something like that.
    • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

      Wed, September 26, 2007 - 5:16 PM
      there is no meme without the means to imitate or transmit it. that is why though the drive to survive can be part of the content of a meme, it is not a meme in and of itself, since it predates memes and also is present in all living creatures, whether they can imitate or transmit information or not.
  • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

    Mon, November 5, 2007 - 11:17 AM
    Memetics, as a subset of cognitive psychology, may be able to explain HOW propositional content becomes a meme. There is an outstanding debate within epistemology between the volitionalists and the intellectualists: can we simply will ourselves to believe something? Alvin Plantingna and William James are volitionalists, for example. If I pay you $1 million to believe the sky is green can you simply will yourself to actually believe that the sky is green? The answer seems to be "No". Yet we do sometimes will ourselves to believe things--especially in cases of self-deception. To reconcile this we need to figure out HOW it is that something becomes a meme.
    • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

      Tue, November 6, 2007 - 11:57 PM
      paying someone to believe something does not a meme make.
      • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

        Wed, November 7, 2007 - 5:39 AM
        I think you misunderstood, Genny. Volitionalists such as Plantingna and James assert that we can simply will ourselves to believe propositions. This does not seem to be correct in the majority of cases. But here we are talking about propositions and memes include cognitive content other than propositions. However, propositional content is very important as it is the type of content that is a guide to act with potential ethical ramifications, such as the claim being made by some African leaders that condoms are not effective in preventing/deterring the spread of AIDs and that no African should use them because it is the imperialist white man trying to prevent the propagation of the African race.
        • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

          Sat, November 10, 2007 - 3:35 PM
          A meme becomes a meme when it "replicates," ie, makes copies of itself.

          The discussion of Volitionalists is interesting... in his book, "The Authoritarians" (available on line: home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/), Bob Altemeyer offers some insight into how it is possible to "will ourselves to believe," something very common in our world/ culture. What Altemeyer calls "compartmentalization" or Chomsky calls "internalization" could be a meme replicating itself by offering its host a benefit:

          <<Authoritarian followers want to belong, and being part of their in-group means
          a lot to them. Loyalty to that group ranks among the highest virtues, and members of the group who question its leaders or beliefs can quickly be seen as traitors. (89)>>

          <<James defined true beliefs as those that prove useful to the believer.>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_James If you offered such a "pragmatist" a million bucks to believe the sky is green, they would believe the sky is green. Although they would see the same color (blue) that you or I would see, they would call it "green." You could hook them up to a polygraph and the needles wouldn't budge. The sky is green for them because they *want* it to be green. Therefore, the sky is green.

          "Faith" is believing what you know ain't so... and many of us have been taught (for thousands of years) that this is a virtue. Those of the theological persuasion like Alvin Plantinga en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantinga provide elegant (some would say "tortured") arguments on the invisible and incomprehensible. Good discussion of it on Edge: www.edge.org/documents/a...edge202.html Memes, being opportunistic critters, naturally thrive in hosts (or vehicles) that have the greatest desire for what the meme seems to offer (such as a sense of "belonging")

          The most precise definition of the meme:
          Meme: A memory item, or portion of an organism’s neurally-stored information, identified using the abstraction system of the observer, whose instantiation* depended critically on causation by prior installation of the same memory item in one or more other organism’s nervous systems.
          (Robert Aunger citing Aaron Lynch in., darwinizing culture, the status of Memetics as a science, Oxford University Press, Oxford, NYC. 2000) .
          * to provide an example to support or explain something

          The harshest critique of the meme:
          Given that the meme concept is nothing more than hip bio-babble, what is interesting about this theory is why anyone would want to believe in such an intellectually dubious proposition in the first place. (Barbrook 1996)

          A working definition:
          Meme: Complex ideas that replicate by forming into a distinct memorable unit; webbing non-matter.

          Thus a nonsensical meme like, "It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" provides an example to support or explain something the host has already decided... that the invisible authority has condemned the interaction of certain kinds of body parts.

          It will be interesting to see if "compartmentalization," or "internalization" reveals a physical/ neurological explanation of the meme.



          • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

            Wed, November 21, 2007 - 3:59 PM
            memetics is late to the party. so much work has been done in social psychology, sociology, and cultural anthropology on the issue of beliefs and transmission of information, that memetics really amounts only to adding a new paradigm and methodology to existing materials. there's even immense work on the process of imitation that predates memetics by a long shot. sometimes it feels like memetics is an attempt to copy-and-paste selfish gene theory into culture without bothering to sniff out the work already done -- biologists and neuroscientists barging in with their eureka moment to invent a "new field" and bring the bias of physicalist reduction and cultural atomism in an almost neo-behaviorist fashion into the scene. ack. for those of you who take the promise of the memetic paradigm seriously, i recommend cautious respect for existing work, and familiarizing yourself with materials in related fields. i suggest that it is the lack of such caution and familiarity that has all but made memetics more of a buzzword for new-agers and atheists than an actual science.
          • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

            Wed, November 21, 2007 - 4:01 PM
            "makes copies of itself."

            so, how does a meme "make a copy of itself"? and define "copy." yes, i mean it.
            • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

              Thu, November 22, 2007 - 6:50 AM
              when the person who hears/reads/listens/ etc to said meme says yes and accepts it is when it makes a successful copy of itself.
              • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

                Mon, November 26, 2007 - 8:46 AM
                if there is a saying of "yes," then why attribute any agency to the meme, even as a beloved shorthand? it seems to me that the replicator logic applies best when no saying "yes" is necessary for transmission. what do you think? all these metaphors of "copy" and agency drive me a little whacko. not even genes actually replicate themselves or make exact copies, even if you just consider the so-called digital information in them.

                i think the concept of "meme" is most valuable when talking about non-reflective "replication" of information into a brain, like non-conscious imitation, coerced dogma, priming, and the like.
                • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

                  Wed, November 28, 2007 - 6:01 AM
                  Ideas having their own agency may be the most useful part of the memetic perspective so far. If the assent of the gatekeeper (or host or vehicle) is unconscious, can it be considered "assent" at all? Does the immune system "say yes" to an invading virus?

                  The agency idea stresses that memes are not human... and they have their own "agenda" which is not necessarily good (or bad) for the host. as a successful replicator, the meme has developed fidelity, fecundity and longevity... but "consciousness" on the part of the replicator or host is not necessary.

                  Why is the "agency" or "replicator" idea annoying? Does it disturb "the great chain of being?"
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: when does a meme become a meme?

                    Wed, November 28, 2007 - 6:50 AM
                    Human consciousness (and many other types too) is active and not passive. Consciousness does not just sit there and wait for data to come in like the immune system sits and waits for invaders before it activates. Consciousness seeks out information/data/experience (otherwise the neurons die). You, waldo, seem to be treating consciousness as passive (and as irrelevant). Both claims are false. After all, even according to memetics a meme must battle against rival memes in the cultural environment and those competitors are part of the "hosts" consciousness.

                    Furthermore, memes are passive. DNA is not passive in that it tells the body in which it resides to generate proteins, etc. that have effects on the host. Memes are transmitted passively by another consciousness and the active conscious processes of the other person determines if they take roost.
                    • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

                      Wed, November 28, 2007 - 11:21 AM
                      Are we projecting "social Darwinism" on to memes? Could it be the ocean that teaches the fish to swim... not "competition" (which is only one type of selection pressure)? How does one apply "activity" or "passivity" to "consciousness?"

                      As to memes being "passive; "religious fundamentalism," for example, I see as one of the most virulent aggressive memes on the planet.... possessing fidelity, fecundity and longevity... has a deciding effect on both medium (culture) and host (individual brain).

                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: when does a meme become a meme?

                    Wed, November 28, 2007 - 4:24 PM
                    "If the assent of the gatekeeper (or host or vehicle) is unconscious, can it be considered "assent" at all?"

                    did you read my post? doesn't seem like you did to me. can you give it another look? nice to engage with you waldo, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts about these things. i love this stuff!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: when does a meme become a meme?

                    Wed, November 28, 2007 - 5:31 PM
                    "Why is the "agency" or "replicator" idea annoying?"

                    because there is little sense it could be said to be true in all instances of information exchange. as i said before, only in instances of psychological priming, reflexive imitation, dogma, and the like, are we really seeing information move from brain to brain in a way that could meaningfully be said to replicate with agency. if someone considers an idea logically and thoroughly, and then decides to believe in that idea for very good reasons and after applying a powerful methodology of filtering out dogmatic or reflexive elements, where do we get off saying it's a meme? we may become so enamored of our selfish meme model and atomistic view of culture that we've become lost in our metaphors.
                    • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

                      Wed, November 28, 2007 - 6:53 PM
                      blue-j, i read your post (again), and perhaps we are saying the same thing. According to Lakoff en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lakoff , Johnson et. al. ... we were lost in our metaphors LONG before memetics. Lakoff, btw., calls memetics a "useless metaphor" ... coming from Lakoff, isn't that kind of an oxymoron? Where we may differ is on the "status" of the meme.

                      The rigor (or lack of) with which a meme is "accepted or rejected," methinks, has naught to do with the meme's classification as a replicator or its agency. it is unlike most other methods of transmission in its degree (and combination of) fidelity, fecundity, and longevity. "Exact" duplication is not necessary. Memes don't have to be "stupid." Geometry is a meme. So is quantum physics... when it forms itself into a distinct memorable unit... E=MC^2.

                      I guess it depends on whether you think thoughts can exist without brains to "think" them. I do. Books, for example, are dormant memes.
                      • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

                        Fri, November 30, 2007 - 6:29 PM
                        look, if you want to use the term meme as any information that can possibly be transferred, go ahead. but where is the room in this world for meme inoculation? how about a good dose of stanovich's "robot's rebellion"?

                        let's use the meme meme to get people to be more critical of reflexive imitation and transmission. let's use it as a tool of rebellion, not as a new way to talk about people as passive automata. if you cast all information packets as having agency and replicating a priori, we erase our capacities for filtration out of the equation. i don't object to that out of some romantic "soul" notion or chain-of-being, but because it's not actually true. this argument in itself is an attempt to apply logical filtration to the meme meme and determine whether the notion of their having agency at all times is reasonable. i say no, let's only refer to things this way in instances when information is traveling from brain to brain with no one is properly evaluating them first (e.g. dogmatic inculcation, mirroring of reflexive imitation, psychological priming). believe me, there's plenty of lifting left for the meme meme to do!
                        • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

                          Sat, December 1, 2007 - 1:42 PM
                          the purpose of memetics is not to "get" anybody to do or "be" anything. It's a *theory,* awaiting falsification (or not). No more- no less. It is no more a "tool of rebellion" than "evolution," although theories that challenge dogma sometimes have that effect. Memes are NOT NECESSARILY "dogmatic inculcation, mirroring of reflexive imitation, psychological priming" any more than fire is an instrument to dispatch heretics. Yeah, it can DO that, but that's not what it IS. The meme, like fire, is a natural phenomenon... no more- no less.

                          At the most extreme, even if we are NOTHING MORE than survival machines for our genes and memes, that still does NOT NECESSARILY render us "passive automata." NO serious memeticist casts "all information packets as having agency," and even if it were true it would NOT NECESSARILY "eliminate a priori." It DOES NOT MATTER if a meme is "properly evaluated" or not (in terms of it being a meme)... and to "only refer to things this way" may be pop-culturally valid, but it's NOT memetics.

                          The social utilitarian anthro-centric ("dominionist") perspective of natural phenomena has us in enough trouble.
                          • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

                            Mon, December 3, 2007 - 5:10 PM
                            "It's a *theory,* awaiting falsification (or not)"

                            yes, and i am trying to participate in fine-tuning the theory, not falsify it, so chill with the ALL CAPS and stridency for a moment and listen to what i'm saying.

                            what i'm saying that insofar as universal darwinism is predicated on replicator logic, that such a way of speaking about some dimensions of culture has no explanatory power, and therefore saying that all aspects of culture or even information can still be seen as a replicator -- even a failed one -- is wrong-minded. we can either redefine memes as not necessarily following replicator logic, or stop using them willy-nilly to describe every damn thing in culture.

                            damage is done to us not only in a shallow attempt to atomize culture, but in taking the "meme's eye view" too far.


                            "even if we are NOTHING MORE than survival machines for our genes and memes"

                            even entertaining this thought proves an attachment to dogmatism and paltry attempts at biologists to enter the field of cultural studies without a clue. this is an example of the kind of reductionism so prevalent in the computer age that it makes me shiver.

                            biologists whose job is to study evolution and transgenerational change can sometimes lose touch with the daily fiber of a creature's existence. true, genes are the primary bottleneck through which all inheritance must pass, and so any strategy or development that inhibits successful reproduction ain't gonna continue, unless it is passed culturally. that doesn't mean a creature can't counter such "interests" in their lifetime, nor does it mean that any such creature doesn't count in some way. you could have a human cult that was asexual and still it could survive theoretically, because we inherit survival-affecting traits culturally as well as genetically. some of this might be by imitation, some by inheriting money, or medical practices, or historical records with good survival tricks in them.

                            genes and memes may constrain the utility of a strategy or development as it moves forward in the future, but they are not the sole dynamic limits of the present by far. and here's the kicker: what do you think happens as we become aware of the replicators and their "interests"? do we not become able to combat their effect to a degree when they come in conflict with our individual organismic interests? like fucking with birth control, or being queer, or making up our own damn minds based on logic and science, and giving manipulative advertisement the bird?
                          • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

                            Mon, December 3, 2007 - 5:16 PM
                            another way of putting it: since many of us probably like the "meme as virus" analogy so much, then where are the healthy cells in our theory?
                            • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

                              Mon, December 3, 2007 - 6:55 PM
                              uh... dude: your listentome listentome requests would carry a lot more weight if you did not project such slap-dash mad inductive leaps into the text of others... for example: <<saying that all aspects of culture or even information can still be seen as a replicator ...>> now *where* (to avoid "all-caps and stridency..." the format does not allow italicization or underling, ye know) did I say *that?* In fact, rereading the thread, I don't see where *anybody* said that. Then, <<...as universal darwinism is predicated on replicator logic>> ... not so, weedhopper. Selection pressure... mutation... well... belay that... since I have *no idea* what you mean by "replicator logic." Are you referring to selection pressure bringing about mutation?

                              "...survival machines for our genes and memes..." ...you know I am quoting Susan Blackmore here, right? <<...an attachment to dogmatism and paltry attempts at biologists to enter the field of cultural studies without a clue. >> Whew. What "dogma" in particular, I might ask. As a "Humanities" bloke meself, I daresay the "sciences" are doing a far better job of cultural perception than the "arts" are these days. Excluding, of course. commercial (not "academic") work like Simpsons and Family Guy. Anyway... you bring up a good question:

                              <<...where are the healthy cells in our theory?>> Taking the same kind of *huge* metaphorical license... let's switch from "virus" to "bacteria" (also contagious). There are "hostiles" like botulism... and "friendlies" like yogurt cultures. To refer to Dennet, he separates "bacterial" type information (complex ideas) from "qualia" (simple ideas) quite nicely:

                              <<The Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism in his 1990 article, "Memes and the Exploitation of Imagination:"

                              These newfangled replicators are, roughly, ideas. Not the "simple ideas" of Locke and Hume (the idea of red, or the idea of round or hot or cold), but the sort of complex ideas that form themselves into distinct memorable units. For example the ideas of:

                              Arch
                              Wheel
                              Wearing clothes
                              Vendetta
                              Right triangle
                              Alphabet
                              Calendar
                              The Odyssey
                              Calculus
                              Chess
                              Perspective drawing
                              Evoloution by natural selection
                              Impressionism
                              Greensleeves
                              "read my lips"
                              deconstructionism

                              -- Dennett, p. 127>>

                              Speaking of Dennet, you might find this lecture series interesting: www.ted.com/index.php/sp...rs/view/id/92 if you haven't seen it already... *especially* the "Lancet fluke" part of Lecture # 3. Perhaps this is where you are going in the attempt to fine-tune the theory?

                              I would speculate that the Shakers are an example of a "healthy" Lancet fluke.


                              • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

                                Mon, December 3, 2007 - 9:30 PM
                                "now *where* (to avoid "all-caps and stridency..." the format does not allow italicization or underling, ye know) did I say *that?* In fact, rereading the thread, I don't see where *anybody* said that"

                                fair enough. i was projecting. i'm happy to hear you don't believe that. so then, not everything in culture or comprised of information is a meme?


                                "since I have *no idea* what you mean by "replicator logic.""

                                this is basic blackmore / dawkins. the basic precursors to a darwinian process include entities which replicate, and have differential survival in reaction to a host of dynamics, and can pass on traits. if these are true, you have a case of "universal darwinism," i.e. a non-substrate specific evolutionary process.

                                memes are said to be like genes in the sense that they replicate and have differential survival rates and the like. yes, basically, i meant selective pressures, mutation, etc as "replicator logic."


                                "you know I am quoting Susan Blackmore here, righ"

                                no, you're quoting dawkins from the selfish gene, whom blackmore quotes.


                                "What "dogma" in particular, I might ask."

                                perhaps dogma is too strong of a word. more like, hey, maybe this cool shit that works here will work... over here too! what a neat package we have now!


                                bacterial infection, sure that's better, thought they replicate themselves, they don't hijack the DNA machinery of a healthy cell, which, by the way, you are still fine with leaving out for some reason.

                                yes, i've read dennett, yes, i've see his TED lectures, yes, uncle dan is cool, though he needs a good tickle. he'd make an excellent santa, i'm thinking, this time of year...


                • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

                  Thu, November 29, 2007 - 5:44 AM
                  because the yes comes from the construct already in place and how it fits in.
                  If someone comes at me with how I should really get my vedic chart done in astrology, because it's more sidereally accurate which appeals to the scientific construct of my self it will still be rejected because the memes I have acquired since first being enamoured of astrology in the first place have placed themselves within an infrastructure that rejects that stars billions of light years away from each other have any effect on my personality no matter how close they seem to be when I look up.
                  I know you hate the metaphors but unless you can describe this in maths metaphors is all we got, baby.
                  If you want to put inverted commas around everything that's fine.

                  I think it's valuable in more than that capacity but that's just me, I think yes the insidious stuff is intriguing...and there's far more of it than people believe....and I'm not placing a value judgement on it at all.I guess I'm just saying that personally I can tell more now than when I used to when and why and what I was rejecting or accepting or caring about rejecting or accepting and passing on than before..


                  PS. I'm deliriously tired, having traveled back from the east coast and all confused....so forgive me if this....sounds like a Prince song...???
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: when does a meme become a meme?

                    Fri, November 30, 2007 - 6:21 PM
                    "it will still be rejected because the memes I have acquired since first being enamoured of astrology in the first place have placed themselves within an infrastructure that rejects that stars billions of light years away from each other have any effect on my personality"

                    you're smarter than this! i don't buy the idea that you reject astrology just because you acquired countermemes. come on, anyone here think the scientific method has any power to filter out memes hopping from brain to brain, for one thing? and NO science is not just a memeplex! and neither is logic. you reject caca because you're smart and are INNOCULATED against many memes, not simply because you have OTHER MEMES.
                    • Re: when does a meme become a meme?

                      Sat, December 1, 2007 - 4:05 AM

                      But I used to believe in it. I used to be really into it...and the book the mememachine gave me the ability to review why I might believe in it and then realize that it was caca as you so eloquently put it.

                      the metameme was the meme that countered the meme.

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